Ruth Institute Blog

Catholic schools in Ontario are not private schools. They exist because they agreed to abide by provincial rules and standards, in return for status and funding. I’m pretty sure they are going to end up with a Gay/Straight Alliance. Anyone who doesn’t like public school can pay to go private. My Grandmother was horrified that they allowed Catholics to attend public school at all. But because they were public schools & she couldn’t afford private my Aunt Glady married a Catholic (twice). It was the state’s refusal to indulge her religious prejudice that ended anti-Catholic bigiotry in Canada in less than a generation.

My Grandmother was Scots/Irish and as Orange as they come. She believed the Pope was the anti-Christ and the Catholic church the tool and spawn of the devil. She believed they were ignorant, dirty savages, that had passels of children they couldn’t feed. After my Aunt married a Polish Catholic boy she went to public school with, my Grandmother stopped speaking to her. When my Aunt was widowed in the war, she married another Catholic and my Grandmother only relented when her Grandson was born. What my Father & his siblings got at home was overcome by their actual experience in public school, where everyone was treated the same way and rubber elbows all the time.

How bad was anti-Catholic sentiment in Canada. Well Toronto still has an Orange Parade every year, though thankfully it is mostly spectacle now.

The Orange Order or Lodge:

[Irish immigrants established lodges in early Canadian settlement districts. Although authorities tried to proscribe them because of Orange–Catholic riots and violence, the lodges flourished, attracting farmers, labourers, timbermen, artisans, shopkeepers, and local leaders. In 1830 Ogle Gowan , an immigrant from Wexford, convened the first Grand Lodge of British America at Brockville. The Grand Lodge provided Gowan with a platform and a netit for organized political activity. That political base grew through Irish immigration, the enculturation of immigrants’ children, the acceptance of Orangeism by other Protestants in both rural and developing urban areas, and the deep anti-Catholic sentiment of Canadian Protestant society. The order became most prominent in Newfoundland, New Brunswick, Ontario, and the Prairies. It was at its height during the 1920s, and commenced serious decline in the 1950s.

Read more: Orange Order – Protestant, William, Lodge, Political, Lodges, and Catholic http://www.jrank.org/history/pages/7810/Orange-Order.html#ixzz1IKy6n43k%5D

Gone by the 50’s When my Aunts and Uncles became adults taking the tolerance they learned in public schools with them, a gift from the state.

It took another generation for Jews. Antisemitism was not as rife with violence, but there was still restricted country clubs in the city I was raised in until the 70’s. It was understood that Jews need not apply.

[“They exist because they agreed to abide by provincial rules and standards, in return for status and funding.”]

You have to understand this happened a very long time ago, more then 150 years, when a public education was a worth a price is far above rubies. Deals were brokered and finally made in the province of Ontario, that established parallel public school systems, one public and one Catholic. The deal that gave status and the funding to Catholic schools allowed them to exist. If it had not gone this way, and in some provinces it didn’t, there would have only been public schools.

I am not a Canadian, and I am not a Catholic, but I understand the principle that if you take the king’s shilling, you do the king’s bidding.

But is there something new here that breaks previous understandings in Canada? Were Catholic schools in Canada previously required (or are they currently required) to have Protestant, Islamic, or atheist clubs to make Catholic schools more welcoming to those views?

[Were Catholic schools in Canada previously required (or are they currently required) to have Protestant, Islamic, or atheist clubs to make Catholic schools more welcoming to those views?]

No, but since only Catholics go to Catholic schools other religions don’t come into it. However Catholic schools follow provincial standards in all non-religious areas. So, for example sex education, anti-racism and anti-bullying programs are the same at all provincial schools. Since gay is not a religious affiliation I suspect the government or failing that the courts will force the provincially funded Catholic schools to accept these clubs, the same way the gay kid was allowed to bring his date to the prom. Gay is not a religion and the law doesn’t protect religious distaste for gays the same as it doesn’t protect religious distaste for brown people, immigrants or single mothers.You can’t expel a kid from Catholic school if her parents are divorced, unmarried or gay. You can’t expel a child if he has sex, uses birth control or gets his girlfriend pregnant.

“only Catholics go to Catholic schools”

This is not true in the U.S. Is it true in Canada?

What if a Catholic discovers he is really more inclined to atheism, Protestantism, or some other religion? Can he then demand a club to promote those views? Surely the laws of Canada prohibit religious discrimination based on a distaste for a particular religion.

Are they any grounds on which someone can be expelled from a Catholic school in Canada?

I can certainly see the downsides to Catholic education from taking government money. How do most Catholics in Canada feel about this?

[This is not true in the U.S. Is it true in Canada?]

In Canada only Catholics go to provincially funded Catholic schools.

[What if a Catholic discovers he is really more inclined to atheism, Protestantism, or some other religion? Can he then demand a club to promote those views?]

As far as I know this has never happened, so I don’t know. We don’t really have religious clubs in schools at this level, except for the rare generic Christian service clubs. It’s just not an issue.

[Are they any grounds on which someone can be expelled from a Catholic school in Canada?]

The same things that get you expelled from public school, nothing religiously based.

[I can certainly see the downsides to Catholic education from taking government money. How do most Catholics in Canada feel about this?]

As far as I know provincially funded Catholic schools are well attended anywhere they exist. That would seem to indicated Catholics like them.

You misunderstood my question. Let me restate it. How do Catholics feel about the problem posed in the start of the thread? That Catholic schools are well-attended doesn’t answer this question.

I note that In 1999, the United Nations Human Rights Committee determined that Canada was in violation of article 26 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, because Ontario’s Ministry of Education discriminates against non-Catholics by continuing to publicly fund separate Catholic schools, but not those of any other religious groups.

[Seriously? So parochial schools a can only exist in Canada at the pleasure of the government? In some provinces religious schools are not allowed? What about non-religious private schools? What’s the home-school situation in Canada?]

What you are missing is the idea of provincially funded Catholic schools, some provinces have what is called a “separate school system” of provincially funded Catholic schools and some provinces don’t. Private schools exist – Catholic and non-Catholic – you pay tuition and your kid can go but they are not provincially funded. We have quite a vibrant charter school system, which combines tuition & public funding, in a lot of places too and some home schooled kids.

Monty said a falsehood:

“Catholic schools in Ontario are not private schools. They exist because they agreed to abide by provincial rules and standards, in return for status and funding.”

They are Catholic schools, nonetheless, and as such neither government funding nor status as a school can justify imposing anti-Catholic policies on Catholic schools.

[How do Catholics feel about the problem posed in the start of the thread?]

I have no idea, my kid was in public school and is now 22. But Canadians is general seem happy with the education system private school enrollments are only about 6% across the whole country & less than 2% across the country home school. You would think both these numbers would be higher if there was deep unhappiness.

[I note that In 1999, the United Nations Human Rights Committee determined that Canada was in violation of article 26 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, because Ontario’s Ministry of Education discriminates against non-Catholics by continuing to publicly fund separate Catholic schools, but not those of any other religious groups.]

And I assume that no province that has Catholic schools (3 of 10) are going to change that anytime soon. They are very popular.

Monty said:

“only Catholics go to Catholic schools other religions don’t come into it.”

False.

Many people of other faiths, and some of no particular religion, have gone to Catholic schools across Canada and have done so because of the higher standard of morality that comes with the principled basis for Catholic education.

The government did not force Catholic schools to grant special protection for anti-Catholic clubs within the Catholic school system. Not the way that gay identity politics is demanding for its special interest groups to be imposed against Catholic teaching in Catholic schools.

And you are being dishonest when you speak of a supposed distaste for people with same-sex sexual attraciton; even when you speak of a supposed distaste for those who identify as members of the gay identity group.

It is clear to me that you have a gaycentric view of all things upon which you comment. These aspoects of this issue are no exception.

The history of Catholic schools in Canada is quite a bit more layered than Monty presents. Readers ought not to take Monty at his word since he is ill-informed on these matters. His gaycentric view distorts what little he has learned of Catholic schools in Canada.

[They are Catholic schools, nonetheless, and as such neither government funding nor status as a school can justify imposing anti-Catholic policies on Catholic schools.]

The fact you don’t agree with something doesn’t make it blink out of existence or turn a true statement into a false one.

[Many people of other faiths, and some of no particular religion, have gone to Catholic schools across Canada and have done so because of the higher standard of morality that comes with the principled basis for Catholic education.]

Private Catholic schools certainly, but not publicly funded Catholic schools. Here is what is required to enroll in Catholic school in Ontario.

* an Ontario Health Card and record of immunization;
* a report card from the student’s previous school (if applicable);
* a birth certificate or other government document to show proof of age (for junior and senior kindergarten only);
* and a Roman Catholic baptismal certificate for either the child OR parent *
* the baptismal certificate of a common-law spouse or step-parent is also acceptable

[The government did not force Catholic schools to grant special protection for anti-Catholic clubs within the Catholic school system. Not the way that gay identity politics is demanding for its special interest groups to be imposed against Catholic teaching in Catholic schools.]

Apparently they didn’t have to. The Catholic school board that banned the GSA, rescinded it’s policy a week after they passed it. If it had made it to court the Catholic boards would have lost.

“Following a barrage of international criticism, an Ontario Catholic school board has overturned its decision to ban gay-straight alliance groups, opting instead for a standardized equity policy until new inclusion measures can be put in place.”

[It is clear to me that you have a gaycentric view of all things upon which you comment.]

And it’s clear to me that an anti-gaycentric view of all things upon which you comment.

So what.

[The history of Catholic schools in Canada is quite a bit more layered than Monty presents.]

The layer it for us.

Monty, the Catholic schools exist because they are Catholic schools, not because they are public schools. Imposing anti-Catholic policies on Catholic schools is unjustified, anyway, and that lack of justification sheds a harsh light on the falsehood you put forth.

Monty, contrary to your listed items, non-Catholics may attend all Catholic schools in Canada. They cannot demand admittance, but they can be accomodated. And many, many, have been so accomodated.

You offer this speculation: “If it had made it to court the Catholic boards would have lost.”

That there is now, in Ontario, a priority placed by Government on the supremacy of gay identity politics is the issue we are discussing, Monty. You can applaud it, if you wish, but you still have yet to offer justification for imposing anti-Catholic policies on Catholic schools.

Intimidation against Catholic Boards, and board members being intimidated into compliance, still does not justify the imposition. However, the report you cited indicated that the board members will formulate a policy with the prospect of a court challenge in mind.

This illustrates the dangers and the threat to society that are coming to the fore just a few years after SSM was entrenched in Canada.

Monty said: “So what?”

You concede your gay emphasis upfront. That is good of you.

I challenge you to justify your gaycentric view of all things upon which you comment. Be as forthright with that.

On the other hand, I oppose the supremacy of identity politics — gaycentric or otherwise. Humankind has learned hard lessons on that score.