Gay, Catholic, and Doing Fine
Steve Gershom (a pseudonym) is a gay Catholic man in his late twenties. His blog, stevegershom.com, has been around for some months, but he has just decided to make it public. It’s original, funny, poignant — and culturally important. You can also find him on Twitter as . I am profoundly grateful to Steve for agreeing to write this post for the Bubble.
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When Leila asked me to write about gay marriage, the first thing I found out was how little I know about it. If I wanted to say anything coherent, I’d have to have definite beliefs about some deeper, thornier subjects first: the relationship between civil and moral law, just for starters. Even if I were sure enough of myself to talk about those things, I doubt I could do it in a blog-sized article.
So I’ll have to do it in a more personal way. That might be better anyhow.
I have heard a lot about how mean the Church is, and how bigoted, because she opposes gay marriage. How badly she misunderstands gay people, and how hostile she is towards us. My gut reaction to such things is: Are you freaking kidding me? Are we even talking about the same church?
When I go to Confession, I sometimes mention the fact that I’m gay, to give the priest some context. (And to spare him some confusion: Did you say ‘locker room’? What were you doing in the women’s…oh.) I’ve always gotten one of two responses: either compassion, encouragement, and admiration, because the celibate life is difficult and profoundly counter-cultural; or nothing at all, not even a ripple, as if I had confessed eating too much on Thanksgiving.
Of the two responses, my ego prefers the first — who doesn’t like thinking of themselves as some kind of hero? — but the second might make more sense. Being gay doesn’t mean I’m special or extraordinary. It just means that my life is not always easy. (Surprise!) And as my friend J. said when I told him recently about my homosexuality, “I guess if it wasn’t that, it would have been something else.” Meaning that nobody lives without a burden of one kind or another. As Rabbi Abraham Heschel said: “The man who has not suffered, what can he possibly know, anyway?”
Where are all these bigoted Catholics I keep hearing about? When I told my family a year ago, not one of them responded with anything but love and understanding. Nobody acted like I had a disease. Nobody started treating me differently or looking at me funny. The same is true of every one of the Catholic friends that I’ve told. They love me for who I am.
Actually, the only time I get shock or disgust or disbelief, the only time I’ve noticed people treating me differently after I tell them, is when I tell someone who supports the gay lifestyle. Celibacy?? You must be some kind of freak.
Hooray for tolerance of different viewpoints. I’m grateful to gay activists for some things — making people people more aware of the prevalence of homosexuality, making homophobia less socially acceptable — but they also make it more difficult for me to be understood, to be accepted for who I am and what I believe. If I want open-mindedness, acceptance, and understanding, I look to Catholics.
Is it hard to be gay and Catholic? Yes, because like everybody, I sometimes want things that are not good for me. The Church doesn’t let me have those things, not because she’s mean, but because she’s a good mother. If my son or daughter wanted to eat sand I’d tell them: that’s not what eating is for; it won’t nourish you; it will hurt you. Maybe my daughter has some kind of condition that makes her like sand better than food, but I still wouldn’t let her eat it. Actually, if she was young or stubborn enough, I might not be able to reason with her — I might just have to make a rule against eating sand. Even if she thought I was mean.
Keep reading.
Your grace is so humbling Steve. God has truly blessed you. Please pray for all of us here.
Catholic but not Christian. He needs to understand something even more important. How he will be judged before God. Unfortunately I have encountered two kinds of Catholics. The ones who are Christian are the ones following Christ and the Bible. The ones who do not are the ones who are Catholic and not Christian.
This is one very strong point where I agree with the Evangelicals. In most of their churches you must obey Christ and follow his word. They make it very clear when you have that water baptism that you agreed to follow Christ. This is why they will disfellowship someone. The message is clear, do want to be a Christian or not.
My message to this Steve guy is that right now you are a Catholic but not a Christian. There is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. If you wish to be a Catholic Christian then you need to leave the homosexual lifestyle.
@JN
I see no evidence in the post that Steve Gershom (pseudonym) is following the “homosexual lifestyle,” and a strong implication that he is celibate. Does that change your judgment?
You go, Brother!
I believe a person can be both Catholic & Christian. Steve is living according to 1Corinthians 10:13. The sin isn’t in being tempted. Even Christ, Himself, was not spared temptation. Christ told us we would recognize His true disciples, “if ye have love, one to another” (John 13:35), not by the # or strength of our temptations. Some thoughts from an LDS Christian.
I clicked through to Steve’s blog and read a few posts, and I was very impressed. I respect and admire him for following the difficult path of celibacy.
John, I don’t understand why you say he is not a Christian. What is your reasoning for reaching that conclusion?
To Paul H. and Leo: My reasoning was simple. You cannot be a practicing homosexual and a Christian at the same time. No such thing. Now you guys are saying he is not engaged in the lifestyle. If that is the case then he is really a nonsexual Christian.
@John Noe
I think “celibate” is a better term.
I find it interesting that Sean, Heidi, Rob and Nerdygirl have not posted on this thread. Steve’s words are powerful and persuasive and come from someone who knows temptation but chooses righteousness instead of indulgence. He is a true Christian. And a true American.
John Noe, Steve’s obedience to God in this battle with temptation through what is obviously a powerful prayer life, have gained for him a gift of wisdom and strenghth to proclaim the truth about God. The truth he speaks of the Church as a mother is powerful and beautiful. That he is here to share his in this battle for truth and freedom is a blessing.
I hope that all of us here can join in prayer for Steve that he will continue to be successful in what must be a very difficult struggle for him. And that he will continue to have the strength to proclaim the truth. Such powerful words from someone who knows the struggle are invaluable.
God Bless you Steve.
OK, I understand where you are coming from. Yes, my understanding from reading several of his blog posts is that he accepts Catholic/Christian/Biblical teaching about the immorality of homosexual relations, and that he has committed to remain celibate.
“I find it interesting that Sean, Heidi, Rob and Nerdygirl have not posted on this thread. Steve’s words are powerful and persuasive and come from someone who knows temptation but chooses righteousness instead of indulgence. He is a true Christian. And a true American.”
I find it sad that this man denies himself the intimate and loving companionship with another human being that he deserves as a human being himself, made in God’s image. I also find it sad that he has allowed his church to convince him that there is something wrong with the way that God made him. Steve’s words are not powerful and persuasive. Steve’s words are terribly sad and self-loathing. I pray that he realizes someday that God loves him just as he is, without the need to deprive himself of the experience of a lifetime of love with another.
I should add that Steve is perfectly entitled to believe what he believes and to practice celibacy if he so desires. However, his religious beliefs and practices have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with marriage equality under the civil, secular law.
@Ruth
Yes, a celibate, Catholic Christian. There is, of course, a very long history of people being in that category.
Not everyone is made to love in that way. Lots of people remain single in some form or another. He has clearly decided that he is meant to be one of those people. Why feel sad for him? He’s not sad.
I get the impression that he does realize that. I hope I’m right.
As to whether there is something wrong with him (by God’s design or otherwise), Steve himself has some thoughts on that here:
http://www.stevegershom.com/2011/07/second-thoughts/
@Heidi
“I find it sad that this man denies himself the intimate and loving companionship with another human being that he deserves as a human being himself, made in God’s image. ”
He has an intimate and loving relationship with GOD. It obviously fulfills him or he would choose otherwise.
“I also find it sad that he has allowed his church to convince him that there is something wrong with the way that God made him.”
Steve sounds like a deeply spiritual and soulful person. I don’t think the Church could lead him where he wouldn’t want to go.
“Steve’s words are terribly sad and self-loathing.”
You obviously don’t know the beauty of the cross. That is sad. I am praying that you will open yourself to what millions of people over the centuries have. A truly loving God…who brings us joy in spite of ourselves….through His self sacrifice. He shows us the way to fulfillment and calls us to follow Him. He’s God. He got it right.
Heidi,
Also, thank you for giving your honest opinion even though you know many people here will disagree.
Paul
Heidi is entitled to her honest opinions. So are those who honestly disagree with Heidi’s opinions. Funny how so few people these days are willing to grant that right to others and defend a person’s right to say what is on their mind without being met with insult, threats of retaliation towards them or their businesses, losing their job, or facing legal penalties and lawsuits.
Voltaire is supposed to have said, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” That is what liberalism used to stand for. Now liberalism stands for politically correct speech codes. I liked the old, classical liberalism. The new liberalism, not so much.
@Leo
“Yes, a celibate, Catholic Christian. There is, of course, a very long history of people being in that category.”
Yes, absolutely.
I meant my comment as a correction to the term “nonsexual”, which I am not sure anyone is, or should be. Celibacy is a perfectly legitimate option for a Believer.
Leo, the “trying to silence us!” gig is getting old. You guys can say whatever you want. As Voltaire explained, you might find that you’re not getting everyone else’s approval, and when your words spill over into actions that impact other people, the line has to be drawn. We get it, you don’t approve of gay and lesbian people. That doesn’t mean you get to limit their civil rights.
Sadly, this statement proves that Sean in fact does NOT get it, or at least pretends not to.
@Sean
“We get it, you don’t approve of gay and lesbian people. That doesn’t mean you get to limit their civil rights.”
Sean, the new marriage license applications in NY will come out on July 24th. They will no longer read Bride and Groom. They will say Applicant 1 and Applicant 2. I suppose the actual license will read Spouse 1 and Spouse 2. Birth Certificates, Passports, Medical Forms, etc. will no longer refer to Mothers and Fathers, but Parent A and Parent B.
“……..you might find that you’re not getting everyone else’s approval, and when your words spill over into actions that impact other people, the line has to be drawn.”
Good. We agree. Since the gay and lesbian community has impacted other people, the line should be drawn. Let’s draw the line: You should not be allowed to take away the rights of heterosexual couples to identify themselves as Bride and Groom, Husband and Wife, Mother and Father. Stop referring to homosexual couples as married (it impacts other people). The term is already defined. Pick something else.
Unless of course, “other people” is an exclusive term which only applies to “gay and lesbian people”. The rest of society is out in the cold.
@Sean
Steve Gershom finds more tolerance and support from Catholics than from gays. I will let his example speak for itself.
I have never tried to silence you or deny anyone their civil rights. I have never called you names. I have never even disapproved of your private contact on this blog or impugned your motives. My political views have a serious libertarian component, though I am not a thorough-going libertarian. I have friends and relations who are gay. I do not ipso facto disapprove of them as people. I do disagree with many, if not most, of your comments on this blog.
You call people names all the time and claim you know their motivations, which you describe in the most demeaning terms. That got tiring a long, long time ago. That in itself tends to shut down reasoned dialog. I have supported employment protection rights for both sexual and political orientation. Have you? I oppose political speech codes, do you?
We do disagree, however, on what civil rights are and how a claimed civil right actually becomes a valid claim and how some methods for asserting new rights are, in fact, paving the way for a tyrannical undermining of democracy. Even the Bill of Rights required a vote before it became binding.
As for everyone’s approval, DOMA referenda and amendments have an excellent track record for passing. You don’t get to neuter the votes of the body politic. Here the people rule.
Tell me what I’m missing, Paul. The only consistent theme is disapproval of gay and lesbian citizens having equal rights.
Sean, let’s try agreeing that same-sex couples don’t have equal rights, and legislate that people only have a right to procreate with someone of the other sex (even gay people have that right) with an egg and sperm law. And let’s preserve marriage as protecting and affirming the right to conceive offspring together from the couple’s own genes.
Then, maybe the grousing and anti-gay attitudes will dissipate a little and life might improve for everyone. But it is truly wrong and bad to keep saying that same-sex couples should have equal rights. Pushing such a terrible idea is bound to lead to bad things. Be reasonable and good things would happen.
To Anne: At post #22 in regards to her last sentence on the post. Yes Anne we do get it, other people only refers to homosexuals and we are left out in the cold. The homosexuals demand an intrepretation of the Constitution, equallity, discrimination, minority, and rights that applies only to them. If any other American would like the same intrepretation that the gays get, then I am afraid that you are out in the cold.
Take any issue that the homosexuals advocate for. Now substitute any other group of people and you will notice that this scenario does not apply to them.
@Sean
You have to stop playing the victim now. The gay and lesbian community has just trampled all over society at large.
They have stripped us of our religious freedom to teach our children what we believe.
They have stripped us of our rights to call ourselves mothers and fathers and husbands and wives.
They’ve destroyed all future generations capacity to truly know the beauty and purpose of male and female genders in the human species.
The homosexual community are not the oppressed, they are the oppressors. And the victim is not the heterosexual community. It is all of humanity.
@Anne
You write, “Steve’s words are powerful and persuasive and come from someone who knows temptation but chooses righteousness instead of indulgence. He is a true Christian. And a true American.”
Are you implying that practicing homosexuals are not true Americans, then? Or did you just throw that in for affect?
@Anne Right on, Anne. Sean has lost all credibility because he has proven he doesn’t really care about helping real families, his only goal is to replace sexual reproduction with labs and eugenic experts. To end the constraint of having to be male or female and mothers or fathers and enable people to overcome gender and eradicate inherited disease by replacing the randomness of sexual reproduction with controlled production of people from designed synthesized dna. They’ve been working on this goal for over a hundred years, and gays and lesbians and their victimhood are just their pawns, and we ain’t falling for it. Preserving natural procreation and honoring mother and father is essential for us living long on this earth. Transhumanism is unsustainable and inexcusable to pursue.
@Anne
“They have stripped us of our religious freedom to teach our children what we believe.”
Not true. Nothing is stopping you from teaching your children whatever it is that you believe. However, if you want to shield them entirely from the rest of the society, a society which includes LGBT people AND families like my family, you will have to homeschool them or send them to a religious school. You do not have the right to have your particular ideology taught in the public schools, especially when to do so would cause harm to MY child.
“They have stripped us of our rights to call ourselves mothers and fathers and husbands and wives.”
Seriously? Give me a break. You are upset because of the notations on some forms? How exactly are you forbidden to refer to yourself as a mother or a wife? And since when do you have any right to dictate the language on a government form?
“They’ve destroyed all future generations capacity to truly know the beauty and purpose of male and female genders in the human species.”
Each sentence just gets weirder and weirder, doesn’t it? You do realize that the vast majority of people getting married will still be straight couples, right? You are not prevented from teaching your children about stereotypical or “traditional” gender roles. Again, you can teach your kids whatever you want to about “the beauty and purpose of male and female genders in the human species,” and I’ll teach mine about treating people equally regardless of their sex, gender, gender identity or sexual orientation.
“The homosexual community are not the oppressed, they are the oppressors. And the victim is not the heterosexual community. It is all of humanity.”
Wow. Melodramatic much? I have just as much of a right as you do to the equal protection of the laws in this country. My family has just as much of a right to exist as yours does. My daughter has just as much of a right to the recognition of her family in the public schools as does your child. LGBT kids have just as much of a right to exist and to live happily and without bullying and derision as every other kid does.
This is a free country. Teach your children whatever it is that you want to teach them. But keep your judgment and condescension away from mine.
“You obviously don’t know the beauty of the cross. That is sad. I am praying that you will open yourself to what millions of people over the centuries have. A truly loving God…who brings us joy in spite of ourselves….through His self sacrifice. He shows us the way to fulfillment and calls us to follow Him. He’s God. He got it right.”
The above quote is exactly the kind of condescension that I am talking about. Excuse me, but I was raised in a Bible-believing, strict Christian household and church. I had memorized the names of all 66 books of the Bible by the time I was 5. I went to church three times a week. All this is to say that I would guess that I know my Bible just as well as you do, perhaps even more. And I know what a truly loving God it is that we have. I pray fervently that God’s love will someday overwhelm the consciences of those who would deny LGBT people their equality. It is precisely because of my faith in God that I believe in the power of love to overcome fear, hatred or judgmental attitudes about one’s fellow citizens. However, as I noted above regarding “Steve,” one’s particular religious views, including my own, are irrelevant when it comes to the question of civil rights in a civil, secular society.
Paul H and Leo, thank you for supporting my engagement in this discussion, even if you disagree.
@Heidi
“I should add that Steve is perfectly entitled to believe what he believes and to practice celibacy if he so desires. However, his religious beliefs and practices have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with marriage equality under the civil, secular law.”
You’re right Heidi, they don’t. They have to do with what is right in spite of what the law permits.
@Sean
“….and when your words spill over into actions that impact other people, the line has to be drawn.”
Did you change your mind about drawing the line Sean? You didn’t respond to my last question.
Could that be because the line works for you where you draw it as opposed to where it actually belongs?
Or is it possibly that the line isn’t really a line, but a circle around the homosexual agenda which keeps everyone else’s rights at bay?
@Emma
@Anne”You write, “Steve’s words are powerful and persuasive and come from someone who knows temptation but chooses righteousness instead of indulgence. He is a true Christian. And a true American.”
Are you implying that practicing homosexuals are not true Americans, then? Or did you just throw that in for affect?”
I’m glad you asked Emma. No I didn’t go for dramatic effect. Steve understands that our rights as Americans come with responsibility. The fact that you can do something doesn’t mean that you should. Our rights end where they impose on someone else. Marriage is not an imposition on the homosexual community. But “same-sex marriage” is an imposition on society.
@Heidi
“Not true. Nothing is stopping you from teaching your children whatever it is that you believe.”
Did you read the next article? The government is insiting that my children recognize homosexuality as “good”. That is oppressive.
“Seriously? Give me a break. You are upset because of the notations on some forms?”
IF IT REALLY DOESN’T MATTER THEN WHY DID THE HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE IT CHANGED?
“And since when do you have any right to dictate the language on a government form?”
I didn’t….you did. (I was fine with it the way it was.)
“Excuse me, but I was raised in a Bible-believing, strict Christian household and church. I had memorized the names of all 66 books of the Bible by the time I was 5. I went to church three times a week. All this is to say that I would guess that I know my Bible just as well as you do,…..”
Then why didn’t you respond to the point I made: What is the meaning of the sacrifice of the Cross?
“The above quote is exactly the kind of condescension that I am talking about……….And I know what a truly loving God it is that we have. I pray fervently that God’s love will someday overwhelm the consciences of those who would deny LGBT people their equality. It is precisely because of my faith in God that I believe in the power of love to overcome fear, hatred or judgmental attitudes about one’s fellow citizens.”
How is it that when I address a comment about faith or prayer to you, you find it condescending, and yet you preach to me?
“Paul H and Leo, thank you for supporting my engagement in this discussion, even if you disagree.”
I support your engagement here too Heidi. It wouldn’t be the same without you.
@Heidi
“However, if you want to shield them entirely from the rest of the society, a society which includes LGBT people AND families like my family, you will have to homeschool them or send them to a religious school. You do not have the right to have your particular ideology taught in the public schools, especially when to do so would cause harm to MY child.”
So only homosexuals have the right to have their particular ideology in the public schools, even if it causes harm to MY child?
@Emma
“Are you implying that practicing homosexuals are not true Americans, then? ”
Perhaps Anne meant her comment in this sense:
“We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams
@Heidi
“You do not have the right to have your particular ideology taught in the public schools, especially when to do so would cause harm to MY child.”
My ideology is NOT taught in school. If it were, the students would all be taught to pray to the Creator and get their answers from The Source, Himself.
What is and has always been taught in school is the natural order. Students have been given literature to read as it was written. Only now with the homosexual agenda is “literature” being written and disseminated in schools with the express purpose of advancing an agenda.
You should be concerned about your child Heidi. Because if your efforts work and agenda’s are permitted in public education, an agenda might just come along that doesn’t suit your own.
@Ruth
““We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and true religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams”
Yes Emma, I meant my comment in that sense.
Our founding father’s were brilliant. That’s why we live in the greatest country in the world. Our government needs to be preserved, not overhaulled. We need to remember who the people that wrote the Constitution were and why it reads as it does. Instead, people consistently challenge and attempt to ammend it to their own tastes.
Certainly, some ammendements have been warranted over time. But the Constitution should not be so mutilated as it is today so as to be barely recognizable in it’s originally intended state.
Thanks for the Ruth
“Or is it possibly that the line isn’t really a line, but a circle around the homosexual agenda which keeps everyone else’s rights at bay?”
I’ll bite, Anne, what’s do you lose when same-sex couples are allowed to marry? You don’t have the right to have the government support your personal or religious prejudices; you don’t have a right to more civil rights than your fellow citizens. So tell me, what rights do you lose when same-sex couples can legally marry?
Wow Anne: You are beautifull and awesome. The above posts from #22 on in response to Sean and Heidi were just brillant. No need for me to post, you with some help from Deb were great.
@Sean
“I’ll bite, Anne, what’s do you lose when same-sex couples are allowed to marry? You don’t have the right to have the government support your personal or religious prejudices; you don’t have a right to more civil rights than your fellow citizens. So tell me, what rights do you lose when same-sex couples can legally marry?”
Really Sean? Is denial the best tactic you can come up with? Repeating the same questions over and over again as if you didn’t get an answer?
I’ll make you a deal Sean: If you promise to reread this entire blog and still can’t identify what I’ve lost now that homosexual couples have the “right to marry”, then I’ll lay them all out for you again. But I’m betting that if you really try, you’ll be able to find them here without any further help from me.
@John Noe
Thanks for the encouragement John. I’m equally impressed with yourself and Deb and Ruth et. al. in this collective effort.
Marriage is holy and sacred in virtually every religion. If I have anything of value to add here, it is only because I am in constant prayer to Our Lord who our Founding Fathers knew and heeded.
@Ruth
“Thanks for the Ruth ” ……help…..
@Heidi
“Excuse me, but I was raised in a Bible-believing, strict Christian household and church. I had memorized the names of all 66 books of the Bible by the time I was 5. I went to church three times a week. All this is to say that I would guess that I know my Bible just as well as you do, perhaps even more. ”
Then of course you know that Jesus referred repeatedly to Himself as the Bridegroom. And to the Church as His Bride. The terms you just chose to have deleted from all government documents.
“And I know what a truly loving God it is that we have. I pray fervently that God’s love will someday overwhelm the consciences of those who would deny LGBT people their equality.”
Since you just “deleted” the loving God from your government, don’t be surprised if He doesn’t answer your prayer. He might not be able to hear you now that you have turned your back to Him.
God loves us as a Father loves his children. True love is not infinitely permissive. It directs us where we should go. And guards us from where we shouldn’t. Which is why you need to remove God from your culture in order to go where you should not.
Anne: there is no “homosexual agenda” other than equality under the law. As Nina Simone sang, “you don’t have to live next to me, just give me my equality!” Perhaps there is also an agenda to help society understand that “the natural order” includes LGBT people, I don’t know. I know that for myself and my family, we just want to be treated equally and fairly. Our “agenda” includes dropping our daughter off at daycare in the morning, going to work at our respective jobs, and then coming home to spend time together as a family, all while caring for our elder relatives, teaching our daughter how to be a good and loving person, playing with our dog, paying our taxes, worrying about how we’re going to afford the latest car repair, etc. There is no “agenda” to recruit your children. Frankly, we don’t really care what you, your children, or anyone else thinks about our family. We just want the same things that every family wants: peace, security, and the freedom to pursue our shared happiness.
Deb, please explain the harm done to your child when your child is taught the truth that our society includes LGBT people and those people are entitled to equality under the law just like everyone else. Are you afraid that being gay is contagious? Are you afraid that your child will “turn gay” if he or she learns about gay people? When your child learns something at school that you disagree with, aren’t you free to teach them what it is that you believe? In other words, your child may learn that gay people exist and have made contributions to our society. He or she may also learn that there are families comprised of same-sex couples and sometimes children are included in those families. He or she may have a classmate that has two moms, like our daughter. You are still free to pass on your moral disapproval of these families to your child.
@Sean “So tell me, what rights do you lose when same-sex couples can legally marry?”
The right to procreate with your spouse using your own unmodified genes. Our right to procreate becomes equated to a same-sex couple’s right to procreate, which requires either modified or substitute genes from one of the spouses.
Anne, I can’t see what you’ve lost. So feel free to list it for me. If it’s not important enough for you to make that effort, I’ll take that as a sign. Losing government support for your prejudices, personal or religious, isn’t a loss anyone is really concerned about. When same-sex marriage is legal, you can still hate gay people and teach your children to hate gay people. So your religious beliefs are wholly intact. You can’t kill gay people, as the bible insists, but that was true before same-sex marriage became legal.
So what rights have you lost?
@Heidi
“You are still free to pass on your moral disapproval of these families to your child.”
That’s not true. If it were that simple, the gay community would not have pushed for “marriage”. You would have settled for the legal support of the things you say you want, like insurance and visitation rights and simple tollerance. What you want is validation. And legally validating your relationship in the public square and in public schools does impose on my freedom to teach my children the morality I choose. The schools will tell my children without hesitation or recourse, that homosexual activity is acceptable behaviour. That is an agenda. And one which publicly and legally opposes my ability to teach my children otherwise.
I believe all children should pray. That’s what my family is about. And sometimes they get made fun of for it. But I don’t get to insist that they be allowed to pray in school. Or have books written about children praying and give them to kindergardeners. That is an agenda. Please recognize it Heidi. For someone who says that all they want fairness, you need to be able and willing to see that. It’s just not that complicated.
Gay couples who have children conceived also impose on innocent helpless children the removal of one of their biological parents from their immediate family. That is selfish and unfair. It simply isn’t right for adults to conciously choose to remove a child from their parent. It is an agenda.
I notice that you have not responded to any of my questions. Particularly the ones about Christ and His Sacrifice, and His reference to Himself as The Bridegroom. I know you think I am judging you Heidi. But this is truly what I believe. And the concept of homosexual marriage directly opposes my beliefs. And I am asking for the same thing you are. The right not to have my children forced to believe what I think is wrong.
@Sean
I conceived my children in love with their father. I carried them in my womb and labored to give birth to them. I nursed them at my breast and nurtured and raised them. I AM THEIR MOTHER. I am NOT parent B.
The state has stripped me of my rightful, natural and legal identity as a mother in order to equate the status of someone who choses to have sterile sex and take other people’s children to use as their own.
You can get this if you want to Sean. But what you want is the same as what Heidi and nerdygirl want: To defend what you choose to do regardless of the damage it causes.
It is apparent that you enjoy this argument because you keep fueling the fire. But Sean, have you stopped at all to really think about what is being said here? Not just from the defensive position that you have taken, but from a genuine openness to what the impact really is to the rest of society? This isn’t just an intellectual debate. Lives are impacted. Innocent children are stripped of their relationships with their parents. Have you ever watched an adopted child yearn for their lost parents? It is meaningful Sean. It is unfair. The homosexual community cannot use other people’s children to justify their lifestyle or fill their desires. The children they are using matter.
@Heidi
Heidi you go from saying: “Frankly, we don’t really care what you, your children, or anyone else thinks about our family. ” to saying: “When your child learns something at school that you disagree with, aren’t you free to teach them what it is that you believe? ”
If you didn’t care what I thought, then homosexuality shouldn’t need to be mentioned in schools. Obviously, since you require I teach that homosexual acts are morally wrong after school, that you think they are morally right and should be taught to my children IN school. See- that’s not neutral.
I am just saying what Anne has said. There is no “neutral” position. Teaching children about those who like to engage in homosexual activities is not a neutral position based on equality. It is indoctrination of children- the same that you accuse the “other side” of doing.
As to your myriad of accusations: Why do you assume my ignorance? I have been on the same thread as you discussing a lesbian couple who ruined the lives of their adopted children in their split (one gave up all rights just because she no longer wanted to deal with her ex-partner). You never commented. I have had a family member who had lived as a lesbian for years and I knew about all her lesbian friends. Your home life isn’t “shocking” to me; I’m not “clutching my pearls”, as your post implies. I have yet to see, in all the lesbian couples I know of, ONE couple last past 10 years, though.
@Heidi
I don’t actually have anything to add. It’s just that sometimes things make more sense when you read them a second time….Heidi, Sean, Nerdygirl.
Or a third………or in this case 400 times:
Be fair and recognize it for what it is: NOT NEUTRAL….it’s an agenda.
Well said Deb.
To Ruth, Sean, and Heidi, and Emma:
It may not be realized, but the children of homosexual lovers are greatly affected. You have taken from them their natural right to have a relationship with their mother and father. There are certain things a mother brings to her children, that a father, hard as he tries, and as much as he loves them, cannot. And vise versa. So I am confused to why you would deny children the wonderful things their rightful parents give to them.
May I propose to you a theoretical situation? Suppose two male lovers have adopted a daughter. And when she reaches of age, she gets her period. A father is not the right person to help a girl through a tough and akward situation like that. And that leaves the girl all alone, to deal with it herself. Sad, isn’t it?
And then, please refer back to COMMON SENSE. It tells us that heterosexuality is normal, and its what our Creator, God, intended love to be like.
“The state has stripped me of my rightful, natural and legal identity as a mother in order to equate the status of someone who choses to have sterile sex and take other people’s children to use as their own.”
The state has done no such thing. You can call yourself a mother with fear of punishment from the state. If you believe you have a right to be called a mother on a form, well, I think you’ll have a hard time suing the state for that right.
“Innocent children are stripped of their relationships with their parents.”
That is more likely to happen because of the actions of straight people than gay people. This is a newly invented right, evidently, that children have a right to different-sexed parents. It never seemed to be an issue before same-sex marriage; single people were never systematically chastised for not including an opposite-sex parents. And still aren’t.
I’d like to see the “what’s best for children” crowd make divorce illegal when there’s minor aged children in the house. Divorce is far more upsetting to a child than having two loving same-sex parents, I bet.
Ironically, outlawing same-sex marriage does nothing to give children two different-sexed parents: their same-sex parents are still same-sexed. Not being allowed to marry doesn’t make one of them a different sex.
“May I propose to you a theoretical situation? Suppose two male lovers have adopted a daughter. And when she reaches of age, she gets her period. A father is not the right person to help a girl through a tough and akward situation like that. And that leaves the girl all alone, to deal with it herself. Sad, isn’t it?”
Seriously? Have you ever heard of aunts? Grandmothers? Sisters? Close female friends? Health class? Not to mention that you are stereotyping by assuming that a man could not help his daughter through something like that. Gee, what do single fathers do? Is there an epidemic of girls who are unable to get their questions about their periods answered? Gasp!
How utterly ridiculous.
Oh and Traci, I didn’t take from my daughter the right to have a relationship with her (biological) mother and father. They did that all by themselves.
As for common sense, well, common sense and SCIENCE tells me that nature includes variations on the norm, such as green eyes, freckles, red hair, and yes, homosexuality. God intended that man (and woman) should not be alone, regardless of whether he or she is gay. Take it up with God if you don’t like gay people. He made us this way.
@Heidi
@Sean
The band-aid over a bullet wound indifference with which you each consistently dismiss these poignant issues makes it so incredibly obvious just how little either of you can conceive of the depth of the mother child bond. And further proves that the homosexual community is no place for children to be raised.
@Heidi
“Take it up with God if you don’t like gay people. He made us this way.”
Did He make pedophiles and rapists “this way” too?
I know Heidi, that’s one of the questions you don’t answer.
“Seriously? Have you ever heard of aunts? Grandmothers? Sisters? Close female friends? Health class? Not to mention that you are stereotyping by assuming that a man could not help his daughter through something like that. Gee, what do single fathers do? Is there an epidemic of girls who are unable to get their questions about their periods answered? Gasp!”
It’s not stereotyping. It’s the truth. No body does it like a mother. One more time Heidi: the fix doesn’t replace the ideal.
Your response to Traci seems pretty emotional. Wasn’t it you who said you didn’t prefer condescention? Traci seems to have stuck a nerve.
@Heidi
You say you know the Bible very well. In that case, I’m sure you’ve heard of the fall of Sodomon and Gomora. It states plainly in black and white that homosexuality is a sin. So, how can you say God made you lesbian, when you know he in no way wants you to sin.
@Sean
“This is a newly invented right, evidently, that children have a right to different-sexed parents.”
No, it’s not a newly invented right, it’s a biological reality. It is a physical impossibility in homosexual relations. What children are entitled to is not to be manufactured for use by homosexual “couples”.
***Sodom and Gomorrah***
Traci, that story is about gang rape, not committed same sex partners. I think we can all agree that we disapprove of gang rape.
@ron
“Traci, that story is about gang rape, not committed same sex partners. I think we can all agree that we disapprove of gang rape.”
We used to all agree that we disapproved of homosexual behaviour. Maybe we just haven’t given gang rape a chance. You know, rapists have their sexual orientation too, and it really isn’t fair for them to have to suppress it. Especially with gang rape, I mean it really is the majority of the people taking the position and that’s what a democracy is, right?
The homosexual agenda is oppressive. It is not a victimless crime.
@ron
Really? Because on the bottom of the page on my Bible where the story is found, it says “According to the present account of the Yahwist, the sin of Sodom was homosexuality” So yes, in fact, it is a sin
“They said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one fellow came in to live as a foreigner, and he appoints himself a judge. Now will we deal worse with you, than with them!” They pressed hard on the man Lot, and drew near to break the door.”
The fact that this is homosexual rape shows that it is the very end of the line for Sodom.
Traci, I don’t know who wrote the footnote in your Bible, so I’l
l just go by what the Bible itself says, and the story in the Bible is clearly about gang rape.
That’s great Anne: homosexuality and rape are comparable? You’ve just surrendured all moral right to complain when people call you hateful.
@ron
“That’s great Anne: homosexuality and rape are comparable? You’ve just surrendured all moral right to complain when people call you hateful.”
It’s not hating. It’s the scary truth. So I guess by stating that, your denying her freedom of speech now, correct? She is not allowed to speak freely about her own thoughts?
@ron
It’s your own argument Ron. If it offends you so much, stop using it.
And when all else fails (like your argument turns against you) just throw out the “h” word. That will gain simpathy for your cause and get you what you want, which is really all that matters.
“The band-aid over a bullet wound indifference with which you each consistently dismiss these poignant issues makes it so incredibly obvious just how little either of you can conceive of the depth of the mother child bond. And further proves that the homosexual community is no place for children to be raised.”
With all the hate coming from the straight religionist community, I’m not so sure I’m comfortable with THEM raising children! As a child orphaned at three, I am painfully aware of the impact of parents in a child’s life. But just as children raised by adoptive parents can be quite well-adjusted (and children raised by their biological parents can be damaged beyond redemption), I know that a child doesn’t care about the gender of his parents but whether they love and care for him.
I wonder, just how many happy children raised by same-sex couples will have to be around for you to accept that good parenting is what matters, not gender?
“We used to all agree that we disapproved of homosexual behaviour.”
And then we became for educated, and learned more about homosexuality and gay and lesbian people. Some of us haven’t been able to keep up with the changes, and that’s sad, but soon enough, it will be only a tiny minority, bitter and lonely, who cling to the old stereotypes.
“Maybe we just haven’t given gang rape a chance.”
It’s been around for thousands of years and few, if any, people who have been raped believe that it was a pleasant experience. So let’s just keep it illegal, ok?
“You know, rapists have their sexual orientation too, and it really isn’t fair for them to have to suppress it.”
They don’t have to, but they do have to not rape someone, which is forced sex against someone’s will.
“The homosexual agenda is oppressive. It is not a victimless crime.”
Evidence, please. The anti-homosexual agenda is far more oppressive, and creates quite a few victims, including innocent children.
@Sean
“And then we became for educated, and learned more about homosexuality and gay and lesbian people.”
Pride is a deadly sin. We’re no smarter than any geration that has ever lived.
““You know, rapists have their sexual orientation too, and it really isn’t fair for them to have to suppress it.”
They don’t have to, but they do have to not rape someone, which is forced sex against someone’s will.”
And homosexuals don’t have to supress their “orientation” either. But they have to stop forcing me to pay for the government to indoctrinate my children to their belief system and they have to stop using other people’s children to validate their choices.
There is no proof that homosexuality is a valid lifestyle. It is only an opinion. When governments start legislating opinions we are headed for tyrany. You won’t like it when we get there Sean.
“We’re no smarter than any geration that has ever lived.”
Not true. We know the earth isn’t flat and only 6,000 years old, the universe is immense, and gay people have no choice about their sexual orientation.
“But they have to stop forcing me to pay for the government to indoctrinate my children to their belief system and they have to stop using other people’s children to validate their choices.”
It is not indoctrination when schools teach that being gay is normal, because it is. You are free to tell your kids that being gay is bad if you wish.
There is no proof that homosexuality is anything but a normal variation of human sexual orientation. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it isn’t normal. The government has lots of positions that are at odds with religions: divorce is legal, pre-marital sex is legal, adultery is legal, dishonoring one’s parents is legal, worshipping non-Christian gods is legal, working on the Sabbath is legal, etc. There is nothing particularly unusually about legalizing same-sex marriage, or teaching human sexuality honestly, even if it is at odds with religious writings.
@Sean
You are locking people into sin and throwing away the key.
Thankfully, God is stronger, and He sent His Son to set us free.
“If you continue in my words, you shall be my disciples indeed.
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Ruth, we locked ourselves when we bound ourselves to obey the US Constitution, even when we don’t want to. Religious belief and practice is optional in this country; obeying the law isn’t.
@Sean
“Ruth, we locked ourselves when we bound ourselves to obey the US Constitution, even when we don’t want to. Religious belief and practice is optional in this country; obeying the law isn’t.”
God’s Word (Truth/Natural Law) doesn’t change Sean. Which sadly can’t be said for the Constitution. What’s the point in law when it changes at people’s whims?
The Truth is Sacred. The Constitution has been torn to shreds.